Interviews with Granny and Grandpa 1985 – 1987
Fran(FO) and Mark(MO)
MO: This is Mark Osborne interviewing Fran Osborne on the 13th April
1985
MO: In what way did household appliances change since you were young?
FO: Well, we hardly had any.
MO: OK, um, like dishwashers. Did you have an
FO: Well, I had a dishwasher when I was first married, but I certainly
we didn’t have a dishwasher when I was young. We had a copper and the
water was all boiled up in the copper and the clothes were put in that.
No, that’s a washing machine. No, dishwashers were unheard of.
Absolutely unheard of.
MO: How about fridges or ovens?
FO: No. No fridges. I don’t even think we had an ice chest when I was
young. We had what you call a Coolgardie Safe. And you had like a cage
thing, like a safe that you hung up. You had material coming down each
side, and you had water in a tin at the top, and a tin at the bottom.
You put water in the top, and you put it in a breezy place, and it kept
the food cool. Coolish anyway.
MO: What did they use for lighting?
FO: Well, when I was young, they still used kerosine lamps in the
country, we had gas lights. Then I suppose when I was about… younger
than you… they changed it over to electricity. That was probably when I
was about seven or eight, or something like that. In fact, your great
grandfather was one of the ones who started putting electricity in
Melbourne, changing over to electricity. He was the head of a team that
put electricity in the Melbourne Soap Factory, for the engines or
whatever they used in the manufacturing part. And, he lead the team who
put electricity into Maffra, in South Gippsland.
MO: In what way did household paths(?)chores?jobs? changed?
FO: Oh, a great deal. A great deal. All that washing, ironing. My
grandmother used to use an iron that you put little coals in. And that
was a very hard job. She used to have to keep it up on the fire, you
know, on the kitchen stove, and they were little flat irons, little
heavy irons.
MO: What kind of recreation was there, in between the working?
FO: Ah, recreation. Like sports did you mean?
MO: As in pastimes.
FO: Like what did you do at night? Or, like sport at school?
MO: I mean after you’ve done your chores.
FO: I used to play hopscotch. All the usual games at school, you know.
Like baseball, and basketball, tennis and cricket. I used to love
cricket. I didn’t play football. My brother did, I think. In the
evening, of course, we used to sing around the piano a bit. We used to
chat and play noughts and crosses, and snakes and ladders. And, we used
to go to dances, of course. I grew up when Jazz music was the thing,
and that was simply wonderful. When I was young, it was the Depression
time when I went to school. So the top musicians of Melbourne couldn’t
play in orchestras because people couldn’t afford to go to them. So
they all played in the wonderful Jazz bands. They were marvellous.
MO: Was there any kind of discrimination in the schools. Like between
the boys and girls in the school?
FO: Well, there probably was, Mark. I went to a girls school, you see.
MO: Oh.
FO: So I didn’t see that, but I would imagine that…well we played
baseball [tape ends]
FO:
…I think there was probably more. In some ways, and yet in other ways,
because I used to kick a football with my brother outside in the street
after school. But you weren’t expected to be rough at all. It wouldn’t
be very lady-like. We played basketball, but it wasn’t the same kind of
basketball. It was what you’d call softball isn’t it?
MO: Netball?
FO: Netball. That’s right. It was very regulated. I got a great
surprise when I took Mike to the Olympics games when they were here in
Melbourne. We saw a basketball game, and it wasn’t anything like the
basketball we used to play. It was very very rough, and very fast.
MO: I’ve played netball at school, before.
FO: And did the girls play with you?
MO: Yes, after class.
FO: We used to play it, and I used to like it very much.
MO: One of the final questions: How much has house design changed, as
in the rooms, and…
FO: It’s gone through various changes.
MO: Like in roofing style…
FO: I think the materials are much the same. But some years back they
started this open design in houses and they found people weren’t
getting enough privacy. Families were all on top of each other. They
had rooms flowing into each other. I think they found that wasn’t a
good idea, and they are coming back to more separate rooms, by and
large. There are more bedrooms now. When I was young nobody had
considered that children had to have their own bedroom. And very often
all the children would be in one room. The boys in one room and the
girls in another. And these days, gradually people began to realise
that it’s very necessary for children to have their own privacy in
their own room. And also the rumpus room is a new innovation, which I
think is very very good because families don’t want to be on top of
each other all the time.
Anyway, we had all these things you see… gramophones. Well that was one
of the recreation things, you see, that has grown and developed
tremendously. The music, and the …
MO: Sound systems…
FO: That’s right. Lea had a gramophone thing, that was a little disk
thing…
MO: Phonograph?
FO: Yes, with little round disks, and it was very tinny and we had to
wind it up. But we thought we were very smart because we had one.
MO: Television. Did that really change the way that you did things when
it came around?
FO: Yes, it did. It changed a lot, because in the evening you used to
site down and read or do sewing, or something like that. Now, it’s very
easy as soon as dinner’s over to sit in front of the TV. Well, it’s
beautiful anyway. You get the world’s best actors on the screen. And
it’s marvellous you get the current affairs, and news. You get to see
what’s happening. When I was young, as far as the news was concerned,
things were happening, but you didn’t hear immediately. I suppose they
still had cable, but it did seem to take longer. You didn’t have this
immediate news like you have now on TV where you can see what’s
happening while it’s happening.
MO: And radios. Did they affect much?
FO: I think radio and TV have affected the world a great deal. More
than we know, probably. Radio, for me, was rather an irritation when it
first came in . All the boys used to go to the radio if we went to a
party or anything. If they had a radio there, the girls would all sit
around with nothing to do while the boys all fiddled with the radio,
the cat’s whisker and all that. It got a little bit tedious.
MO: Ok. Thanks for that.
FO: That’s all right.
MO: That’s all the questions.
Fran(FO) and Mark(MO)
MO: Where abouts did you live in the Depression?
FO: In Hawthorn, in Burton Avenue, in Hawthorn.
MO: Were you living with your father and mother and family?
FO: Not with my father. My father had been killed in the war, and we
just lived with my mother and sister and brother.
MO: Were you working at the start of the Depression?
FO: I think it was just about the last year just as I left school. When
did the Depression really start?
MO: Well, we are given that it started in 1929
FO: ’29, right. Well I think that was my last year at school, and then
I went onto Stott’s Business College. And that was when I started
hearing about boys building roads. They left Scotch College and they
were making roads, breaking rocks and things.
MO: Did you get a job throughout the Depression?
FO: Yes, I was lucky. Partly because of my father being killed in the
war, and the Legatees. They were marvellous. They made sure I got a
job. The first typing job I got, there were 140 girls at one job…
terrible.
MO: And what was the job?
FO: It was with Burns Phillip, the shipping people, on the corner of
Elizabeth St. and Collins St. It was in a building they’ve pulled down
now.
MO: Did anyone in your family have to leave home as a result of the
Depression?
FO: No.
MO: Did you know anyone, or any friends that had to?
FO: No, I didn’t, actually. I knew it was happening, but I didn’t
really know anybody that had gone to get work on farms and things. I’d
heard of it but I didn’t actually know anyone who did that.
MO: Did you find that there was any hostility between the workers and
the unemployed?
FO: No. Not having a father in the family, you see, that sort of thing
was, fortunately… I didn’t get the full force of the Depression.
MO: Were there any changes to your pay or the hours you had to work
during the Depression?
FO: You had to work very hard. Grandpa’s pay was changed, I’m pretty
sure. He was well ahead of me. I didn’t know him then of course, but
I’m pretty sure the public service pay was reduced. And we had pretty
skinny salaries. I think I earned about 15 shillings a week. And , my
goodness me, they did work you hard. You had to work overtime, and all
sorts of things. Because you knew that if you lost that job you just
didn’t get another one.
MO: How did you find the Depression affected your family’s lifestyle?
For example, in the availability of food?
FO: You had to be very careful with food. I still scrape everything to
the last drop. You had to turn the gas off immediately. You had to
watch absolutely everything, because even though Mum was on a soldier’s
widows pension, it was still much the same as everybody else. At least
we knew it was coming in every week.
MO: How did it affect entertainment at home? How did you entertain
yourselves?
FO: We mostly saw our friends at home. But I’ll tell you something in
connection with entertainment. Of course, being young it was the years
when I was going out and having a great deal of fun. The dances went on
as usual. You’ve probably heard of the flappers. But the best musicians
in Melbourne couldn’t get jobs. And they would pound out music in the
various dance places, and the music was fantastic because it was this
marvellous Jazz, you see. So it was absolutely wonderful for that part
of it.
MO: What were your views on Jack Lang? What did you think of Jack Lang?
FO: Well, I was not a bit political, though I knew political things
were going on. And we used to hear about this, what did they call it?
The something brigade. And I remember when we heard about it we
couldn’t believe it, because it happened in Sydney. And in those days
Sydney was a long way away. I remember being told, I was out somewhere,
in fact I think it was at a church thing. Bob, what was the name of the
people when De Groot cut the ribbon?
RO: The New Guard.
FO: Right. We heard about this man galloping up on a horse and cutting
the ribbon before poor Jack Lang could. But not having a political
family I didn’t have any views at all.
MO: Were there any cases of hardship in the family as a result of the
Depression?
FO: Not really, Mark, no. But all around me… we belonged to St.
Columbs’ in Hawthorn, and I always remember being at a concert in the
summer school hall, and the boys sitting behind me, I wondered what
they were talking about. They were saying, “So and so is on susso, so
and so’s on susso”, or “We’re going to get our susso”. It came up in
conversation but that’s about the only thing I remember of it.
MO: Did you find it had any permanent effects on you or the way you
lived afterwards?
FO: Oh, yes. Most of the people my age can’t throw anything out. We
feel guilty if we don’t use everything to the very last bit. It was
really very important.
MO: Did the church play an active role in helping people during the
Depression?
FO: They probably did, although I don’t know. I knew that the
Brotherhood of St. Lawrence had started. My aunt was doing district
nursing then. You see, there was a lot of poverty in Melbourne even
before the Depression. You only had to go through these poor parts.
There was a lot of poverty. Much more than we realise now. You go
through parts of Melbourne on the tram, and you’d see young women and
prams, and they looked like old women they were so poor. Nobody ever
looks so poor as people did back then, thank heavens. I think as far as
the church was concerned, there was a very funny atmosphere at the
church of St. Columbs. They were so snobby about everything. You had to
toe the line or you were very much frowned. It’s the snobby atmosphere
of St. Columbs I remember more than people helping each other. Though
they must have been doing so. I suppose I was young and not noticing
much of what was going on.
MO: Finally, do you have any vivid memories of anything that happened
during the Depression?
FO: Something I only vaguely remember, but Jean mentioned one day, was
the people coming and selling things that was very sad. And this day,
this man came by, selling something or other, and on this day, Jean and
I were home by ourselves. Before he went, he said something about not
having had anything to eat all day. So of course we took him in and
gave him some food and sat him down, and I think we probably gave him
some bread and butter, and some milk. But this I found most distressing
because it was still going on after I was married. When we were first
married we were down in Camberwell Road in Hartwell, people used to
come to the door, and their shoes were completely worn through. Their
feet were sticking out of their shoes. That used to upset me
dreadfully. I probably noticed it more when I was home then, than when
I had been working before I got married. You’d get person after person
coming in and selling the most pathetic little things that nobody would
ever want to buy. I suppose they just had to sell what they could
manage to scrounge or something. And then there was the people in the
streets selling funny little things. Yes, it was a very sad time.
MO: Ok, thanks.
FO: I suppose it all adds up to a picture when you get all the bits
together. It’s a time that you never ever want to see again. And you
won’t either. People talk about these wicked times, but there’s very
much more care for other people going on in the world, certainly in
Melbourne, than ever in my lifetime.
MO: There’s a book out at the moment called, “The Great Depression of
the Nineteen Nineties” were they forecast another great depression…
FO: Well if they keep on saying these things they might help to prevent
it. I don’t think that people could possibly let it happen again.
See, Aunty Lea, she did district nursing which meant she went into the
homes of all these people in Collingwood and Fitzroy who were very very
poor. She went on her bike everyday with her long skirt. This was when
I was quite young. She used to deliver babies on beds with newspapers.
That was all they had. They would spread newspaper on the bed and
deliver the baby. They simply did the best they could. They probably
had to run out for water to a pump in the backyard, because I doubt
they would have had water laid on. But certainly had to use newspapers
for everything. It’s something we just can’t imagine. It’s no wonder
that the health costs are up. But look at the healthiness of us.
Robert(RO) and Mark(MO)
MO: This is the interview of Robert Morris Osborne, aged 81, on the Second World War. This interview was taken on the 7th of the 11th, 1987.
MO: Where abouts did you live before the war broke out? The second
world war.
RO: Well, I got married in 1937, which was two years before the war
started. We lived in Camberwell Rd, in Hartwell, which was where
Michael was born. And after Michael was born, we moved into Burwood.
MO: And did you move during the war?
RO: Fran? We did move to Kew. I’ll just go ask Granny…
RO: We moved to Kew in 1944.
MO: And where did you work?
RO: The post office.
MO: Which one? In Melbourne.
RO: At the beginning of the war, I was working in Victoria. But during
the war I was transferred to central administration, which was
[unintelligible]… still in Victoria. We had to take charge of the air
raid precautions.
MO: Did anyone have to leave home as a result of the war? Were you
living with your family during the war?
RO: We lived with Fran and Michael, and Andy was born in 1943.
MO: Did you have any housing problems?
RO: No.
MO: Did you remember any experience of friends having problems?
RO: No. Apart from being nervous of the Japanese coming here, I don’t
think anyone was really …
MO: Oops, it’s the wrong question. I’ve got a “Depression” question.
It’s the wrong question.
RO: Oh, I see. My brother Ken was out of work for a while when I was
very lucky with everything. I’ve been extremely lucky in my life. I’d
joined the Post Office just before the Depression, and I managed to
hang on, and I wasn’t out of work, but my brother was. The best he
could do was try to lift for a while with Coles. That’s a Depression
story, though.
MO: Did any members of your family fight in the war?
RO: Granny’s brother was in the air force. And he was killed in the air
force over the English Channel.
MO: Did you play any parts in the war effort?
RO: The main part I had was with organising the air raid precautions
with the Post Office. I was also involved with an organisation within
the Post Office called the Army Communications Unit which was sort of a
backup to the army if there was an invasion. Most of my efforts were in
planning for things that didn’t happen. So if I was going to be
effective or not, I wouldn’t know.
MO: Did the war effect any schooling? Did Dad go to school during the
war?
RO: He probably started at school when he was six, he was five at the
end of the war, so…
MO: How did you entertain yourself during the war? Was it just the same
as before? In the way of leisure activities?
RO: Well, life didn’t change much during the way in that respect. We
didn’t have TV, but at home, I did the garden, and helped Fran around
the house and in the garden. I don’t recall changing much, and I don’t
think most people did. When the war was on they ran the Melbourne Cup.
Racing went on, and cricket and footy. There was no great upheaval in
Australia during the war. In 1942, we were very nervous about the Japs.
But they didn’t get here.
MO: Were there any major decisions made by the government that you
either liked or disliked during the war?
RO: Put it this way: I was very disappointed that England wasn’t able
to help Australia. And to that extent, Mr Curtin, the Prime Minister,
called upon the Americans to help us. And when you think about it, in
cold blood, it the wisest and bravest decision he ever made. He had
made varying decisions with rationing and so, but all the decisions
made by the government were necessary decisions. As far as I know, I
certainly get upset about any of them. They were a damn nuisance but
they were necessary.
MO: What did you think of Germany and the German people? Was it a
hatred or a dislike?
RO: Well, propaganda made us… we were frightened of them. Nazi people…
we all thought of the German people as being Nazis. And most of them
were. They were highly organised and a very frightening lot of people.
On the whole we were frightened of them. On the whole they seemed much
more competent and efficient than our side. At that time. After the war
when we saw what they had done, we started to hate them for the
atrocities they did. There is no doubt that what they did to the
countries they had invaded… it is difficult during the was to separate
the truth from the propaganda… but after the war it was confirmed they
did some terrible things, and they did. I do believe that there aren’t
many wars that are justified. But I do believe that we were fighting an
unmitigated evil in that war. The Nazis were evil incarnate, in my
opinion, and I think most of us thought that way.
Though, in Australia after all, the Nazis were a long way away from
Australia, but the Japanese were not so far, and they were our main
threat. We were frightened of them too. We used to say, “They can’t see
properly with their eyes like that”, but they were very very good
soldiers, the Japanese. The were ruthless too, and cruel. That’s part
of war I suppose, but the Japanese we saw as our main enemy in
Australia. Initially, we treated them with contempt. But when we say
how they behaved, our contempt changed to fear. They seemed to be
unstoppable for a while. I suppose we respect them now for their
business acumen.
MO: What did you think, or what were your impressions of Hitler?
RO: He was a figure of fun for starters. When they saw what he could do
with his Blitzkrieg, and he was in Belgium and France and he was on the
Atlantic coast within a few weeks. He just folded up the French army
and the British army which escaped. He was a figure of fun for starters
before the war. We could see it coming. We could see it coming for a
while. He was gradually expanding Germany, with Austria and those
places, and then he walked into Poland. The war could be seen coming.
And while he and Mussolini, the Italian dictator, were making their
plans together, we treated them initially as figures of fun, but when
we saw how effective he was – he took over Austria, Czechoslovakia, and
with Italy – he began to look like a damn worry. And then when we saw
what they had done to people in the country they had invaded, there
started a hatred of him, combined with respect. He was feared and
respected. Same as the Japs. Because they were damn competent people
running a war. And we were frightened they’d win it. And they would
have won it too. If Hitler hadn’t invaded Russia, he would probably
have won. It wouldn’t have been nice to be living as a Nazi here, I can
tell you that.
MO: What were your impressions of General McArthur?
RO: He was a dynamic autocrat. I didn’t have any personal dealing with
him. He was a domineering autocrat who appeared to be a very efficient
soldier. He wasn’t a likable by any means. But he had personality, and
he certainly had the trust of the Australian government.
MO: How about General Blamey?
RO: Well, there were a lot of stories told about Blamey. He was
regarded as a bit of a bumbler in a way. He was dominated by MacArthur
during the war, mainly because Curtin listened to MacArthur more than
he listened to Blamey. I didn’t have any opinions of Blamey. He was
just in charge down here. He did a very good job in New Guinea. He was
the credit for that, I think. He wasn’t given much credit at the time.
I had a neutral opinion about Blamey. He had a reputation for being a
womaniser and a scalliwag in some respects. But he was a pretty good
soldier, but there were other soldiers during the war like MacArthur,
and Montgomery and Eisenhower in Europe, and he was bit overshadowed by
them. Apart from the New Guinea business, which was important to
Australia, he didn’t have a major operation in the war. New Guinea was
the nearest we were touched by the war. There were other activities
going on that tended to keep him in the shade a bit.
MO: And how about Churchill?
RO: At the time, the sun used to shine out of his eyes. He was a right
bastard, but he was the right man for the job, there is no doubt about
that. He was the man with the job ahead of him. Without him, England
would have folded and that would have been the end of it. He was a
blustering arrogant man, but he was the man for the job. He had the
personality of MacArthur multiplied by several, apparently. During the
war, Churchill, I had a very high opinion of him. After the war, you
realise he must have been a terrible nasty man, too, and a lot of his
decisions were wrong. But he held Britain together. He frustrated
Hitler. And partly because he was frustrated that he couldn’t invade
England, he invaded Russia. And that was his downfall. And that was the
turning point of the war. Churchill should be given credit for that,
nasty man though he probably was. He wasn’t as evil as Hitler. He and
Stalin were the very embodiments of evil as a matter of fact. We didn’t
realise that at the time, because Stalin was Uncle Joe to us.
MO: What about Teddy Roosevelt?
RO: We liked him, too. He was the rich uncle from America who supplied
the goods. He did a great job. He helped save us from the Depression
during the war…
[TAPE GAP FOR 1 MIN]
RO: Truman was one of the great presidents of America. He had to make a
lot of hard decisions, and one of the was dropping the atomic bomb on
Hiroshima.
MO: Did you agree with the bomb?
RO: I must admit I wasn’t so happy about the second one they dropped on
Nagasaki. I didn’t think they needed that. If the bomb hadn’t happened,
the Japanese would have fought to the last man, and would have killed
hundreds of thousands of Americans. And Japanese would have been
killed, but mainly Americans. As it was, he killed a lot of people in
Hiroshima. On the balance, in my opinion, it was a courageous decision,
and the right decision. No-one could foresee the developments since
that time. I don’t think we had much opportunity at the time to decide
whether the second bomb on Nagasaki… now it seems like a bit of an
over-reaction… the Japanese probably would have given in after the
first one. It finished the war and saved hundreds of thousands of
Japanese and American lives. In that light, in my opinion, it was
justified. Anyway, he was a funny little man. He was a haberdasher in a
store in America. Nobody thought he’d be following this really gigantic
and towering figure in America. And nobody thought that Truman could
follow him. But in my opinion, he did at least as good a job, and made
some tough decisions. One of them, was when he sacked MacArthur.
MacArthur wanted to invade North Korea and bomb the place with atomic
bombs. He thumbed his nose at Truman and Truman sacked him. MacArthur
was going to stand for president, but he didn’t get a nomination in the
end. He was a strong personality on paper, and he looked like he was
going to dominate Truman, but he didn’t. Truman got the better of him.
Truman did another good thing. He also supported what is called the
Marshall Plan. The Americans made an unprecedented generous … they saw
that Europe was on it’s knees. The Americans saw that they needed help,
including the Japanese and the Germans. They devised a plan to support
the Europeans financially. It’s one of the most generous thing any
nations ever done in my opinion. So for the Marshall Plan and the bomb
he had to spend a lot of money, and he had to get that through the
American government, which he did. SO with these three very big things
he did, in my opinion, these put him up as a really great president.
But we haven’t had a president as good as him since then, I can say
that for sure. We didn’t know that at the time. You don’t see things
like this until after. But I tell you what, when people now talk about
what a terrible thing it was to do, we breathed a sigh of relief. And
I’ll tell you who breathed the biggest sigh of relief: the Australian
prisoners of war in camps like Changi and places like that. They were
getting a terrible time from the Japanese. And I don’t think you’ll
find any prisoners of war of the Japs who would have said he shouldn’t
have dropped that bomb.
MO: Thanks a lot
RO: That happened a few years ago now. During the war, you’re not told
everything. You’re only told what the government of the day thinks you
should know. Even when your in it. You only hear what’s good for you.
It’s only after the war that you learn in hindsight that your thinking
was coloured. Churchill for example, the people in English politics
thought he was a funny sort of a bloke. Noone would have thought at the
time… we didn’t realise he was a drunk and a bully and a nasty man,
really. When you’re in a war, the only concern is to beat the enemy.
Everything is coloured by that. When the Americans were here, the fact
they were a damned nuisance, they became pretty damn unpopular here,
and we were glad to see the back of them. But we didn’t want the Japs
here either. If you have to choose between the Japs and the Americans…
If you had to choose whether you were run by the Germans, the Japs, or
the Americans, you’d choose to be run by the Americans.